Armed Conflict Foreign Relations & International Law

Lawfare Daily: Defending Ukraine Outside NATO with Michael O'Hanlon and Andriy Zagorodnyuk

Mykhailo Soldatenko, Michael O'Hanlon, Andriy Zagorodnyuk, Jen Patja
Tuesday, August 26, 2025, 7:00 AM
Defending Ukraine from Russia aggression without NATO membership. 
Meet The Authors

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Lawfare Contributor Mykhailo Soldatenko sits down with Michael O'Hanlon, Director of Foreign Policy Research and Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution, and Andriy Zagorodnyuk, Chairman of the Centre for Defence Strategies in Kyiv, a former Ukrainian Defence Minister, and a nonresident scholar at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, to discuss ways of defending Ukraine from present and future Russian attacks in the absence of NATO membership.

Please see the following policy proposals relevant to the discussion: 

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Armed Conflict Foreign Relations & International Law
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Mykhailo Soldatenko

Mykhailo Soldatenko

MySoldatenko
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Mykhailo Soldatenko is an attorney in Ukraine and New York and an S.J.D. candidate at Harvard Law School. He was previously a senior associate at a leading Ukrainian law firm, practicing international dispute resolution. He is also currently a Legal Fellow at Lawfare.
Michael O'Hanlon

Michael O'Hanlon

@MichaelEOHanlon
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Michael E. O'Hanlon is the Co-Director of the Center for 21st Century Security and Intelligence and Director of Research in Foreign Policy at the Brookings Institution. He specializes in national security and defense policy. Before joining Brookings, O'Hanlon worked as a national security analyst at the Congressional Budget Office. His current research agenda includes military strategy and technology, Northeast Asia, U.S. Central Command and defense budgets, among other defense and security issues. His most recent book is "The Future of Land Warfare" (Brookings Institution Press, 2015).
Andriy Zagorodnyuk

Andriy Zagorodnyuk

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Andriy Zagorodnyuk is the chairman of the Centre for Defence Strategies in Kyiv and a nonresident scholar at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He served as minister of defense of Ukraine from 2019 to 2020.
Jen Patja

Jen Patja

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Jen Patja is the editor of the Lawfare Podcast and Rational Security, and serves as Lawfare’s Director of Audience Engagement. Previously, she was Co-Executive Director of Virginia Civics and Deputy Director of the Center for the Constitution at James Madison's Montpelier, where she worked to deepen public understanding of constitutional democracy and inspire meaningful civic participation.
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